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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with filmmaker and author Oliver hakan

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Hall about his new documentary neurons

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to Nirvana hey if you ingest psilocybin

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it's going to go fire off your brain

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like crazy and that's why you're going

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to have these amazing experiences and

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these emotions attached to it and then

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nut does this work and he gives people

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solace iben and they go under the fMRI

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and today just the opposite is happening

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the brain isn't firing these areas are

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dampened suppress this also comes back

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to refreshes Aldous Huxley's proposition

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that brain if you will is a dampening

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device you can't be open to everything

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when you have to make sure that you can

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catch a particular fish or whatever it

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may be you know at the same time these

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peak experiences of experiencing all if

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you will or the mystical experience is

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also extremely important for our

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survival in terms of erasing the

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importance and the intoxication of the

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individual as compared to the group stay

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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host Alex a garrison on this

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episode of skeptic oh we return to the

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topic of psychedelics and the

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psychedelic experience and how that

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might provide an insight into these

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larger questions we ask about

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consciousness our guest is extremely

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well-qualified someone who's dug into

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this topic in depth over three or four

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years in compiling a very excellent

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documentary film that you'll hear about

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there's really not much else to say I

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think it's all covered in the interview

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let's get right to my dialogue with

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Oliver Huck and Hull today we welcome

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Oliver huckin whole to skeptic Oh Oliver

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is a documentary filmmaker who's created

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neurons to Nirvana understanding

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psychedelic medicines a movie about the

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use of an issue surrounding using

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psychedelics as medicine Oliver this

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ought to be a very interesting dialogue

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thanks so much for joining me on skeptic

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oh well thank you very much Alex for

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inviting me I just want to introduce the

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film by suggesting that or by letting

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people know that when you make a film

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that there's there's a lot of people

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involved so I can't take full

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responsibility for it I mean I do take

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full responsibility for the film there's

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so many talents that were involved with

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it to make this including the musicians

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the cinematographer the executive

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producers and so on so it's it's a long

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process to make a film like this three

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or four years with numerous people and

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people that I forget about and then I

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remember and go wow that person

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contributed you know quite a bit to it

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it's this endless really it's quite a

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process great well I'm glad you got that

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out there and I think that folks will

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even appreciate that more if they watch

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the film more so because it kind of

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speaks to the quality of the film a bit

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there's a lot of people out there

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especially nowadays who make quota

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quote documentary films and some of them

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are okay that they're kind of one-man

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band kind of things and they look like

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it this is just the opposite in terms

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it's look it looks like a very well-made

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film it is it's engaging it's

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entertaining and the content for anyone

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who's even remotely interested in these

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topics that is psychedelics and the edgy

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use of psychedelic medicine how it fits

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into society what it might need in a

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broader sense I can't recommend the

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movie highly enough it's just really

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well done so congratulations on that and

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tell us a little bit more about this

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film really three to four years in the

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making what drove you to make it it

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began when I was talking to a mark

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Ackbar mark is the director of the

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corporation probably a film that many of

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your listeners might know about very

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successful yeah very successful

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documentary and we talked about what

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would be maybe a the next film that we

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could get involved with and felt that

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the issue of psychedelic medicines and

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that's what we're dealing with the

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psychedelic medicine sasur these these

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substances as medicines would be the

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most viable film in terms of releasing

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suffering in terms of addressing

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suffering in the world that it that

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because of the development and research

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current research is taking place with

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psychedelics we felt that these these

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things really needed to be to come out

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more we needed we've really felt that

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the research the science the medicine

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that has taken place now and that has

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take that took place very heavily in the

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60s as well needed to be revisited great

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well once again it is a really great

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movie but as we talked about in our

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email exchange my interest for the most

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part lies if you will on the topics that

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lie just on the other side of where that

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movie leaves off and and that's not

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quite accurate because your movie does

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dip into and touch on some of these

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issues of consciousness x

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tended human consciousness where that

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might mean how this might challenge some

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of the paradigms that we have but it

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really stays true to the title and it

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focuses on the the medical pharma

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logical issues around the use of this so

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the approach I really want to take in

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this interview and I hope you're okay

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with it and from our email exchange I

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think you are is really honing in on two

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questions what do psychedelics tell us

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about consciousness and number two what

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are the social and political

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implications of question number one that

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is how might we explain this war on

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drugs issue that you kind of touch on in

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the film if we do come to a different

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understanding about consciousness so let

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me back up there and start with question

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one what does neurons to Nirvana tell us

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what are your conclusions about the

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nature of consciousness what do we know

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about it from our understanding of how

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psychedelics work this is a this is of

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course a key question and even though

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and you're you're very much correct that

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this is the underlying stream if you

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will or the or the hidden stream that's

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involved in the piece dealing with

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consciousness itself and so what what

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psychedelics do what you know from my

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understanding of what some of these

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research researchers have have come up

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with both in terms of the experiential

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experiences of the people who take

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psychedelics as well as the neurological

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research and we're talking about people

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from John Hopkins we're talking about

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people from Purdue University you know

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well known a well-established

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accomplished neurophysiol Nero

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psychopharmacologist you know people

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who've been working in the field for I

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know 30 40 years you know and they're

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telling me that what these things can do

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is allow for

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uh the perception of our unity with all

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of life let's go in on that for a minute

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because as you mentioned the film

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features some very top notch researchers

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who are talking about peer reviewed

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research that has been done in the under

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the best controls published in like I

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said top journals and all that stuff

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talk about David Nutt if you will a

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little bit he's featured in the film

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very highly regarded what is he a

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psychologist or he's really an MD in the

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UK yeah um David he's a

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neurophysiologist neuropsychol

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pharmacologist you know again he's very

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well establish a drug research institute

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or some I can't remember the exact title

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of his position but anyways you know

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highly regarded individual and his work

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with understanding silicide been under

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MRI conditions revealed that certain

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areas of the brain dealing with identity

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issues let me jump in there and tell me

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tell me if I'm wrong but what's amazing

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the Hutt is research is it's completely

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counterintuitive and that there's two

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sides to this debate about what

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consciousness is one is this idea is

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that hey consciousness is purely a

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product of the brain and your brain

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produces comment consciousness and it

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just kind of secretes it out and there

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you go and there's this other model

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that's less popular but really has some

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real intellectual force behind and it

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says no conscious is more like something

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that's out there in your brain is this

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transceiver that brings it in so what

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people would have expected the kind of

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status quo mind equals brain scientist

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would have expected is hey if you ingest

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psilocybin it's going to go fire off

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your brain like crazy and that's why

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you're going to have these amazing

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experiences and these emotions attached

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to it we know what that's like that's a

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brain that's just firing off like crazy

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and then nut does this work and he gives

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people solace iben and they go under the

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f

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arai hey just the opposite is happening

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the brain isn't firing these areas are

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dampened suppressed which compared

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supports this other model that this

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consciousness is flowing in and what the

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brain is doing is kind of regulating it

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and if you turn that regulator down you

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get like a full dose of this

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consciousness and that's what it means

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to be trippin on silicide now I don't

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know which side it is right but that's

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kind of where the debate has wound up

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right well yeah I think that this also

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comes back to our reveals or refreshes

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Aldous Huxley's proposition that the

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mind is or the brain if you will is a

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dampening device now I'm basically

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designed for survival usage you know so

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that you know you can't be open to

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everything when you have to make sure

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that you you know can catch a particular

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fish or whatever it may be you know so

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you're not you're not open to the

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buzzing confusion the endless amount of

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information that is accessible to you

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because it would be of survival it

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wouldn't be of survival benefit at the

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same time these peak experiences of

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experiencing all if you will or the

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mystical experience is also extremely

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important for our survival in in terms

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of erasing if you will the importance

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and the intoxication of the individual

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as compared to the group so that if we

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become more associated with group

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consciousness with the consciousness of

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all our relations as the native people

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say that you know that that we are all

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connected to the plans to the water to

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the animals to each other then we see

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each other as brothers so it is a

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mystical experience that we are talking

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about an experience that places us

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within an associative into the

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associative web of life itself

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fascinating that's really interesting I

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hadn't quite thought of it in exactly

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that way tell me this from your work and

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from what we find in the movie

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how would you say the researchers you

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talked to are divided on this issue you

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said something there that's really kind

275
00:12:33,650 --> 00:12:31,290
of neat and I can really kind of wrap my

276
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:33,660
arms around but your movie doesn't come

277
00:12:40,730 --> 00:12:37,170
across as being that much in the camp of

278
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:40,740
the expanded view of consciousness and

279
00:12:43,550 --> 00:12:42,090
that's not a negative it just says

280
00:12:45,530 --> 00:12:43,560
you're kind of just reporting the

281
00:12:47,570 --> 00:12:45,540
research and it's kind of coming through

282
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:47,580
as hey we're not sure this is it but we

283
00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:49,130
definitely need to use this as medicine

284
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:52,380
tell me how you suss that out in your

285
00:12:56,660 --> 00:12:54,690
own way I mean that this step that we

286
00:12:59,180 --> 00:12:56,670
take initially to saying okay there's

287
00:13:02,120 --> 00:12:59,190
some therapeutic medical advantages of

288
00:13:05,390 --> 00:13:02,130
this we must cease right away and then

289
00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:05,400
this broader implication kind of idea

290
00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:08,310
that you have I approached this film in

291
00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:11,310
terms of relieving my own suffering and

292
00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:15,480
to attempt to assist in the relieving of

293
00:13:21,530 --> 00:13:19,350
suffering of others now you know in some

294
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:21,540
ways as example when we talk about

295
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:25,050
something like MDMA it's being abused by

296
00:13:30,740 --> 00:13:27,570
many many people at the same time it can

297
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:30,750
be used very very potently within a

298
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:32,850
therapeutic setting that would allow

299
00:13:38,570 --> 00:13:36,090
people to touch into their own heart now

300
00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:38,580
how does it do that scientifically it's

301
00:13:45,260 --> 00:13:42,510
revealed as example that that it

302
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:45,270
relieves a certain kinds of tensions

303
00:13:50,140 --> 00:13:47,730
within the amygdala which is the Center

304
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:50,150
in the brain that deals with emotional

305
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:53,130
trauma right that that area in the brain

306
00:14:01,010 --> 00:13:57,120
has that you know it deals it will it

307
00:14:02,930 --> 00:14:01,020
will be marked in terms of

308
00:14:04,940 --> 00:14:02,940
post-traumatic stress disorder and in

309
00:14:07,250 --> 00:14:04,950
some ways if you really look at our

310
00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:07,260
society you can say that all of us have

311
00:14:11,770 --> 00:14:08,520
suffered from post-traumatic stress

312
00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:11,780
disorder when I was growing up you know

313
00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:14,310
nuclear bombs are about to drop all the

314
00:14:18,890 --> 00:14:15,900
time right I mean I lived through the

315
00:14:21,770 --> 00:14:18,900
Cold War so you know that there's a kind

316
00:14:23,540 --> 00:14:21,780
of continuum of trauma that we've all

317
00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:23,550
experienced and there's there's there

318
00:14:29,750 --> 00:14:25,830
are there are medicines out there that

319
00:14:33,260 --> 00:14:29,760
will connect us profoundly to who we are

320
00:14:36,260 --> 00:14:33,270
to the heart within us relieve fear

321
00:14:37,070 --> 00:14:36,270
right relieve fear and fear in the

322
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:37,080
indian traditions

323
00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:39,600
and fear is when there's a quote from or

324
00:14:44,780 --> 00:14:41,940
a line within one of the Hindu

325
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:44,790
scriptures that suggests that when there

326
00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:47,130
is another that is when fear begins and

327
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:50,100
I think that that is something that in

328
00:14:56,090 --> 00:14:53,040
our society that promotes so importantly

329
00:14:58,850 --> 00:14:56,100
the idea of the individual as compared

330
00:15:01,040 --> 00:14:58,860
to our relationship our relationship and

331
00:15:03,230 --> 00:15:01,050
the importance of our of our care for

332
00:15:06,260 --> 00:15:03,240
one another it is quite prominent our

333
00:15:08,270 --> 00:15:06,270
society great so what I hear you saying

334
00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:08,280
Oliver and this then syncs up with what

335
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:10,860
I saw in the movie is you can be

336
00:15:15,890 --> 00:15:13,680
agnostic if you will about this issue of

337
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,900
consciousness and still approach and say

338
00:15:20,090 --> 00:15:17,760
gee there's all these people who are

339
00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:20,100
suffering for example in the United

340
00:15:23,690 --> 00:15:22,110
States so many people who are suffering

341
00:15:25,340 --> 00:15:23,700
from post-traumatic stress disorder

342
00:15:27,260 --> 00:15:25,350
after their tours in Iraq and

343
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:27,270
Afghanistan and all these other quote

344
00:15:32,890 --> 00:15:30,210
unquote Wars and we can purely approach

345
00:15:36,170 --> 00:15:32,900
it if we want from a materialistic

346
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:36,180
brain-based standpoint and say here's

347
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:39,570
this drug MDMA ecstasy and under the

348
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:42,600
proper controlled clinical therapeutic

349
00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:45,290
environment it just seems to be

350
00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:48,150
efficacious for the result that we've

351
00:15:52,730 --> 00:15:49,710
been trying to get for these people all

352
00:15:54,860 --> 00:15:52,740
along in that we want to help them move

353
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:54,870
on with their life and integrate in

354
00:15:58,280 --> 00:15:56,880
these traumas that they've had and we

355
00:16:00,380 --> 00:15:58,290
don't have to go any further than to

356
00:16:02,330 --> 00:16:00,390
just look at doesn't that work and

357
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:02,340
shouldn't we make that available to

358
00:16:08,030 --> 00:16:05,910
people yeah absolutely it is a that

359
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:08,040
practical it is a practical film in that

360
00:16:11,570 --> 00:16:09,810
way and I'm very happy that it is in

361
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:11,580
that direction at the same time there

362
00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:13,890
are moments within the film that either

363
00:16:20,990 --> 00:16:17,580
through visuals or through narration

364
00:16:22,820 --> 00:16:21,000
that explicate the this issue of

365
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:22,830
consciousness that where it's happening

366
00:16:28,010 --> 00:16:25,770
well let's jump from there than to

367
00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:28,020
question number two because I think the

368
00:16:32,630 --> 00:16:30,600
little dialogue we've had so far kind of

369
00:16:34,910 --> 00:16:32,640
plays out this story in my mind of it

370
00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:34,920
just a fascinating issue is like okay so

371
00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:37,860
we don't have to go there in order to

372
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:40,220
see that some of the laws and

373
00:16:44,570 --> 00:16:43,050
regulations we have surrounding the use

374
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:44,580
of these important medicines are

375
00:16:50,780 --> 00:16:48,570
antiquated are there are really injuring

376
00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:50,790
people are not helping people that

377
00:16:55,820 --> 00:16:52,350
could be helped right so we can get

378
00:16:58,100 --> 00:16:55,830
there through your film but then don't

379
00:17:01,160 --> 00:16:58,110
we have to ask the second part of that

380
00:17:03,740 --> 00:17:01,170
question which is why is it like that is

381
00:17:06,620 --> 00:17:03,750
there another reason that we have to

382
00:17:09,770 --> 00:17:06,630
consider the for maybe why these laws

383
00:17:13,970 --> 00:17:09,780
are the way they are why this culture of

384
00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:13,980
war on drugs and that your consciousness

385
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:16,470
needs to be controlled and all the rest

386
00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:18,720
of that why we've gone down that path

387
00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:20,670
I'm sure you've thought about that a lot

388
00:17:25,460 --> 00:17:23,100
personally I don't know that your film

389
00:17:28,370 --> 00:17:25,470
addresses it directly but I'd be really

390
00:17:30,820 --> 00:17:28,380
curious as to what you think about that

391
00:17:34,490 --> 00:17:30,830
do you think there's an underlying

392
00:17:37,790 --> 00:17:34,500
motive either directly or indirectly in

393
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:37,800
our culture's war on drugs well I

394
00:17:41,930 --> 00:17:39,570
appreciate what you're saying here and i

395
00:17:44,210 --> 00:17:41,940
agree with you i do think that i do

396
00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:44,220
think that's mostly in directed and it's

397
00:17:51,050 --> 00:17:47,760
it has to do with fear again it has to

398
00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:51,060
do with fear of one's own mind the more

399
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:53,220
and it's you know for you even if we

400
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:55,410
look at this idea of the conservative

401
00:17:58,520 --> 00:17:57,210
brain in the liberal brain you know

402
00:18:01,670 --> 00:17:58,530
there's been some discussion and

403
00:18:05,650 --> 00:18:01,680
research in that direction and it

404
00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:05,660
suggests that certain brain structures

405
00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:09,990
are not willing to to take any risk in

406
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:11,430
there not lives they're not willing to

407
00:18:18,590 --> 00:18:15,810
to expand outside of their framework so

408
00:18:20,690 --> 00:18:18,600
the more creative and clearly as a

409
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:20,700
society we need to be more creative we

410
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:24,690
need to embrace each other and embrace

411
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:29,210
our own creativity and these substances

412
00:18:36,590 --> 00:18:33,120
again position properly within a

413
00:18:41,150 --> 00:18:36,600
cultural tradition that respects what

414
00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:41,160
these states of mine are about and what

415
00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:44,550
they can give to us and what they mean

416
00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:47,070
these think these these things can be

417
00:18:52,670 --> 00:18:51,270
powerful allies now what's happened in

418
00:18:56,990 --> 00:18:52,680
the past and what's happening now is

419
00:18:59,410 --> 00:18:57,000
that this war on drugs relates to a kind

420
00:19:02,140 --> 00:18:59,420
of oppression and suppression of the

421
00:19:04,580 --> 00:19:02,150
possibilities of consciousness itself

422
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:04,590
people in power people who

423
00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:08,010
you know it's a bad thing to allow the

424
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:10,860
kids to have all the colors they have

425
00:19:15,399 --> 00:19:12,480
all the color pencils in front of them

426
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:15,409
it is a way of control it's a way of

427
00:19:20,750 --> 00:19:18,090
disallowing the possibilities of one's

428
00:19:22,909 --> 00:19:20,760
own mind at the same time I understand

429
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:22,919
why that has happened in the past

430
00:19:28,279 --> 00:19:25,770
because you know people can abuse these

431
00:19:30,350 --> 00:19:28,289
things and it's true they can but they

432
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:30,360
can abuse anything it's it they're very

433
00:19:36,409 --> 00:19:33,210
powerful medicines we should be looking

434
00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:36,419
to cultures as example the Native

435
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:38,190
American culture who have been using

436
00:19:44,570 --> 00:19:41,610
peyote is example for 5000 years right

437
00:19:47,810 --> 00:19:44,580
when they do it in ceremony it's it's

438
00:19:51,529 --> 00:19:47,820
very much a gathering that is very

439
00:19:53,539 --> 00:19:51,539
sacred that respects everyone that deals

440
00:19:56,810 --> 00:19:53,549
with these issues but in a very elegant

441
00:19:58,460 --> 00:19:56,820
and complete manner so how do you deal

442
00:20:00,649 --> 00:19:58,470
with these ultimate states of

443
00:20:02,180 --> 00:20:00,659
consciousness if you know if you do it

444
00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:02,190
without respect then you're just

445
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:04,470
entertaining yourself you know and

446
00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:06,720
people do that to you know which is kind

447
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:08,700
of unfortunate because even though I

448
00:20:15,399 --> 00:20:11,450
think that it's fine to engage

449
00:20:18,019 --> 00:20:15,409
occasionally in a in in a less than

450
00:20:20,149 --> 00:20:18,029
ceremonial setting I think that if

451
00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:20,159
you're going if you're going to fully

452
00:20:25,370 --> 00:20:22,500
benefit from the experience it should be

453
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:25,380
within community and within within a

454
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:28,559
support structure that recognizes the

455
00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:31,710
potential the symbolic the metaphysics

456
00:20:36,649 --> 00:20:34,710
the metaphors the mythic level of

457
00:20:40,250 --> 00:20:36,659
consciousness that one gets into with

458
00:20:43,159 --> 00:20:40,260
these substances and navigates all of

459
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:43,169
that I agree with that at the same time

460
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:44,970
what I appreciated about your movie is

461
00:20:50,149 --> 00:20:48,090
your movie doesn't say that as much or

462
00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:50,159
doesn't say that directly instead it

463
00:20:54,590 --> 00:20:52,049
says something I think very powerful and

464
00:20:58,010 --> 00:20:54,600
that let's start with the therapeutic

465
00:20:59,930 --> 00:20:58,020
modeler as a way of understanding how we

466
00:21:01,850 --> 00:20:59,940
might integrate that in and then we have

467
00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:01,860
therapists who come on and say you know

468
00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:03,840
the use of this drug is all about

469
00:21:09,860 --> 00:21:06,809
setting it's all about context as well

470
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:09,870
as it's about the biochemical reaction

471
00:21:15,020 --> 00:21:13,440
and I think that speaks to some of the

472
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:15,030
issues as you're talking about but does

473
00:21:18,499 --> 00:21:17,490
it in just a really pragmatic medical

474
00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:18,509
way that everyone

475
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:20,470
understand and feel comfortable with

476
00:21:24,210 --> 00:21:22,690
great yes thank you I think that that's

477
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:24,220
true I think that we've managed to do

478
00:21:28,590 --> 00:21:26,559
that and and again I really want to

479
00:21:29,879 --> 00:21:28,600
emphasize the importance of all of the

480
00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:29,889
people that were involved with the film

481
00:21:35,009 --> 00:21:32,350
and then to give them thanks and

482
00:21:37,019 --> 00:21:35,019
gratitude but let me circle back if I

483
00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:37,029
can Oliver to a little bit more on the

484
00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:39,580
political side social side because I

485
00:21:44,159 --> 00:21:41,919
think we're kind of coming at this from

486
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:44,169
a very similar way and you kind of

487
00:21:47,759 --> 00:21:45,730
creeped up there and said hey you know

488
00:21:50,399 --> 00:21:47,769
if you really were interested in

489
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:50,409
controlling large masses of people and

490
00:21:54,029 --> 00:21:52,330
you were interested in controlling them

491
00:21:55,499 --> 00:21:54,039
for the reason that you wanted to

492
00:21:58,049 --> 00:21:55,509
protect them and at the same time

493
00:22:00,810 --> 00:21:58,059
protect your own interest then it's not

494
00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:00,820
really in your interest to run out to

495
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:02,769
have people run out there and explore

496
00:22:08,159 --> 00:22:05,710
their individual or group consciousness

497
00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:08,169
you know you really prefer to have them

498
00:22:12,180 --> 00:22:09,809
kind of more in this fear-based

499
00:22:15,389 --> 00:22:12,190
consumer-based mode i mean that's much

500
00:22:17,879 --> 00:22:15,399
more malleable and at the same time what

501
00:22:20,399 --> 00:22:17,889
you would do again I would suggest is

502
00:22:22,289 --> 00:22:20,409
exactly what we've seen you'd want to

503
00:22:24,450 --> 00:22:22,299
take those medicines yourself and

504
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:24,460
explore how to use those how to

505
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:26,559
weaponize those and you might want to do

506
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:29,200
something like project MKULTRA and you

507
00:22:34,259 --> 00:22:31,570
want to give them the people under the

508
00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:34,269
worst conditions in the worst context

509
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:36,580
and try and really warp the brain and

510
00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:38,110
twist the brain and see what you want to

511
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:41,049
do I mean don't we have to face that

512
00:22:48,989 --> 00:22:44,970
that is what we would expect a

513
00:22:51,299 --> 00:22:48,999
government to do a controlling entity to

514
00:22:54,060 --> 00:22:51,309
do and that that's the best evidence we

515
00:22:56,879 --> 00:22:54,070
have for exactly what has happened yeah

516
00:22:59,039 --> 00:22:56,889
I think some of your listeners may be

517
00:23:01,440 --> 00:22:59,049
interested in Jay Stevens LSD in the

518
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:01,450
American Dream is called storming heaven

519
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:04,320
and it's an excellent book about

520
00:23:10,499 --> 00:23:06,850
psychedelics during the 60s and the

521
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:10,509
involvement of the CIA and so on you

522
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:16,210
know it it's a fascinating rate and I do

523
00:23:20,489 --> 00:23:18,970
believe yes you know that what you're

524
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:20,499
Cedeno some aspects of what you're

525
00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:22,720
saying I certainly agree with I think

526
00:23:28,049 --> 00:23:26,470
that um I think at the same time you

527
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:28,059
know it's it's important for us to not

528
00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:30,730
be too conspiratorial about this in my

529
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:31,710
opinion because

530
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:34,730
there's such a flexibility as an example

531
00:23:44,810 --> 00:23:37,710
were malleability within this whole

532
00:23:46,430 --> 00:23:44,820
world if you will so even though you

533
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:46,440
know but I do believe that there's a

534
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:48,090
number of people that work that that

535
00:23:55,250 --> 00:23:51,330
were involved with LSD in the CIA who

536
00:23:58,330 --> 00:23:55,260
became very who became a little bit

537
00:24:01,340 --> 00:23:58,340
different than the rest of their fellow

538
00:24:05,299 --> 00:24:01,350
workers because of their experiences it

539
00:24:07,310 --> 00:24:05,309
is so yeah I don't have any examples in

540
00:24:10,130 --> 00:24:07,320
front of me but they got turned on and

541
00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:10,140
probably dropped out as well it's not

542
00:24:16,190 --> 00:24:12,960
all black and white sure no certainly

543
00:24:19,820 --> 00:24:16,200
and again your movie is evidence of that

544
00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:19,830
in that you see all these folks who have

545
00:24:24,830 --> 00:24:22,980
a sincere interest in helping people as

546
00:24:28,279 --> 00:24:24,840
you said removing relieving suffering

547
00:24:30,110 --> 00:24:28,289
and I think that's just a wonderful

548
00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:30,120
place to start because it we can

549
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:31,679
certainly build consensus around that

550
00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:34,710
and build consensus around that the the

551
00:24:41,389 --> 00:24:37,500
medical use of these drugs which one of

552
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:41,399
these drugs these substances did you

553
00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:44,250
learn the most about in terms of making

554
00:24:49,490 --> 00:24:46,470
this movie and the medical uses of it

555
00:24:50,990 --> 00:24:49,500
it's a difficult question it's actually

556
00:24:53,389 --> 00:24:51,000
impossible to answer because they are

557
00:24:56,299 --> 00:24:53,399
they are each unique in their own way

558
00:24:58,909 --> 00:24:56,309
and at the same time the one of those

559
00:25:00,649 --> 00:24:58,919
those it substances that I didn't

560
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:00,659
examine in the film because it

561
00:25:05,690 --> 00:25:02,640
positioned within the Native American

562
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:05,700
community is peyote well I just want to

563
00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:08,450
pay homage if you will to that community

564
00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:10,460
because they've been dealing with

565
00:25:16,279 --> 00:25:13,500
they've been traumatized to such an

566
00:25:18,139 --> 00:25:16,289
extent and at the same time is such an

567
00:25:20,570 --> 00:25:18,149
amazing community in such an amazing

568
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:20,580
culture you know if we if we really look

569
00:25:25,789 --> 00:25:22,770
at what it means to be a North American

570
00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:25,799
it means to be at least to know of the

571
00:25:32,779 --> 00:25:28,950
of that beauty of that of the Native

572
00:25:36,769 --> 00:25:32,789
American culture and they were involved

573
00:25:38,889 --> 00:25:36,779
with peyote for 5,700 years so you know

574
00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:38,899
we're talking about a long history of

575
00:25:44,810 --> 00:25:42,990
medicinal use sacred use of a plant we

576
00:25:45,620 --> 00:25:44,820
should at least touch on the substances

577
00:25:48,020 --> 00:25:45,630
that you do cover

578
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:48,030
in the movie in each of these is covered

579
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:50,880
in depth both in terms of its their

580
00:25:56,860 --> 00:25:52,650
medical uses and some of the issues

581
00:26:00,550 --> 00:25:56,870
surrounding them legally LSD psilocybin

582
00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:00,560
MDMA also known as ecstasy ayahuasca and

583
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:03,240
cannabis of course canvas was the one

584
00:26:07,010 --> 00:26:05,220
that kind of surprised me the most I

585
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:07,020
guess I learned some things about the

586
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:09,840
medical uses of cannabis marijuana that

587
00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:12,240
I that I wasn't aware of I found it

588
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:13,470
really interesting because i think that

589
00:26:22,550 --> 00:26:18,090
i think that the war on drugs from the

590
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:22,560
60s and 70s and to today as well of

591
00:26:27,770 --> 00:26:24,930
course today as well but but the

592
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:27,780
beginning of it was related to a lot

593
00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:30,570
related to the youth movement of the 60s

594
00:26:35,030 --> 00:26:33,150
so you know when people were starting to

595
00:26:37,970 --> 00:26:35,040
smoke marijuana it was kind of like a a

596
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:37,980
refusal of the gin and tonic and the and

597
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:41,970
the scotch and water you know you can

598
00:26:49,730 --> 00:26:44,400
tell a lot about a culture by the drugs

599
00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:49,740
it approves and those the the youth

600
00:26:55,340 --> 00:26:53,520
embracing marijuana was related to first

601
00:26:59,210 --> 00:26:55,350
of all it's a lot easier on the body

602
00:27:03,130 --> 00:26:59,220
than alcohol it gets you into a state of

603
00:27:06,290 --> 00:27:03,140
mind that is much more compatible to

604
00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:06,300
being at ease in the world and and it

605
00:27:10,850 --> 00:27:08,910
definitely can be medicinal so at that

606
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:10,860
moment that the you know the youth

607
00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:13,170
movement in the 60s against the war

608
00:27:17,660 --> 00:27:14,940
against the Vietnam War which is which

609
00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:17,670
is covered somewhat in the film it was

610
00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:20,430
related to the use of something like

611
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:23,910
marijuana and I think that the youth

612
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:26,910
embraced these drugs because they wanted

613
00:27:30,860 --> 00:27:28,890
to because they realized there was

614
00:27:33,970 --> 00:27:30,870
something wrong with our society deadly

615
00:27:36,260 --> 00:27:33,980
wrong with it and they wanted to have

616
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:36,270
conscious experiences that were

617
00:27:45,020 --> 00:27:40,890
definitely outside of the box of Daddy's

618
00:27:46,550 --> 00:27:45,030
liquor cabinet and you know we're we're

619
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:46,560
still dealing with that we're still

620
00:27:52,370 --> 00:27:48,930
dealing with you know that the choices

621
00:27:53,780 --> 00:27:52,380
that are made about where you where you

622
00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:53,790
want your brain to go where you want

623
00:27:58,760 --> 00:27:56,310
your consciousness to go and some people

624
00:28:02,390 --> 00:27:58,770
still obviously are frightened

625
00:28:05,210 --> 00:28:02,400
a certain kind of ease as compared to

626
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:05,220
the the harshness that is often attached

627
00:28:09,850 --> 00:28:07,110
to I mean you know you never hear about

628
00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:09,860
someone or rarely hear about someone

629
00:28:15,290 --> 00:28:12,270
hurting someone under the use of

630
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:15,300
cannabis while alcohol obviously it's

631
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:18,410
both a depressant and seems to encourage

632
00:28:23,270 --> 00:28:20,730
violent activity from a certain group of

633
00:28:24,740 --> 00:28:23,280
people you know one final question for

634
00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:24,750
you Oliver let me kind of take it out

635
00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:26,430
there a little bit but this is a topic

636
00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:29,340
that has been touched on by several

637
00:28:34,340 --> 00:28:31,470
different folks when I had Rick

638
00:28:37,580 --> 00:28:34,350
Strassman who of course wrote the spirit

639
00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:37,590
molecule into his research into DMT but

640
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:39,150
also in the book by Graham Hancock

641
00:28:46,910 --> 00:28:42,690
lately and that is this idea that there

642
00:28:49,070 --> 00:28:46,920
are spirit entities associated with

643
00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:49,080
these substances now that they sound way

644
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:51,390
out there for some folks but we have to

645
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:54,000
realize that the conversation that we've

646
00:29:00,740 --> 00:28:57,810
had is really a precursor to that if we

647
00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:00,750
free ourselves from this materialistic

648
00:29:04,970 --> 00:29:03,120
explanation that consciousness is purely

649
00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:04,980
a product of the brain and we just

650
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:06,600
follow the data like the data you have

651
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:08,250
in your movie to get there and we say

652
00:29:14,510 --> 00:29:11,130
wow that really seems to be it then we

653
00:29:16,940 --> 00:29:14,520
might have to be open for this spirit

654
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:16,950
world and we might have to then take

655
00:29:23,210 --> 00:29:19,250
seriously at least into consideration

656
00:29:25,610 --> 00:29:23,220
whether there are spirits associated

657
00:29:28,190 --> 00:29:25,620
with these substances do you have any

658
00:29:30,950 --> 00:29:28,200
opinion or thoughts on that or even how

659
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:30,960
to approach a question like that no

660
00:29:35,330 --> 00:29:33,090
thank you i I think it's a really

661
00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:35,340
important question I think that if you

662
00:29:41,450 --> 00:29:38,100
appreciate as an example the ideas of

663
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:41,460
Joseph Campbell if you appreciate the

664
00:29:47,810 --> 00:29:44,490
ideas of someone like Wade Davis these

665
00:29:49,730 --> 00:29:47,820
are anthropologists and Reese and story

666
00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:49,740
researchers people who have studied

667
00:29:55,820 --> 00:29:52,860
mythology and so on what we can

668
00:29:58,490 --> 00:29:55,830
ascertain and what I personally vassar

669
00:30:01,760 --> 00:29:58,500
tained is that there are levels of

670
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:01,770
consciousness that reveal to us that we

671
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:03,930
are not alone these entities that are

672
00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:06,930
much larger than us as example water

673
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:09,390
itself like if you really thought about

674
00:30:14,710 --> 00:30:12,050
it like what what the hell is water

675
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:14,720
you know you if you if you can set

676
00:30:19,420 --> 00:30:16,970
yourself within in what would be called

677
00:30:22,210 --> 00:30:19,430
in the Western mind the poetic frame of

678
00:30:26,770 --> 00:30:22,220
mind you'll see that the world is a

679
00:30:30,310 --> 00:30:26,780
magical full place full of entities full

680
00:30:32,620 --> 00:30:30,320
of powers and that and and again if you

681
00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:32,630
want to go further in that idea if you

682
00:30:37,330 --> 00:30:34,880
want to go you know wilder that it

683
00:30:39,910 --> 00:30:37,340
doesn't really make sense to me that any

684
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:39,920
advanced civilization would be rocketing

685
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:42,080
from one place to another right that

686
00:30:46,150 --> 00:30:43,760
seems like it would be a kind of archaic

687
00:30:49,150 --> 00:30:46,160
way of getting around when you could do

688
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:49,160
it through the mind and in my opinion

689
00:30:56,110 --> 00:30:54,110
though this world is full of who knows

690
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:56,120
what I think that I think that we're

691
00:31:00,720 --> 00:30:58,250
that it's so interconnected I think all

692
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:00,730
the universe is so interconnected that

693
00:31:08,410 --> 00:31:06,170
you know the aliens are us and by

694
00:31:10,930 --> 00:31:08,420
approaching it that way when is not

695
00:31:12,670 --> 00:31:10,940
relying on a kind of fear-based oh my

696
00:31:15,490 --> 00:31:12,680
god there's scary things out there

697
00:31:17,380 --> 00:31:15,500
you're approaching it like oh I'm one of

698
00:31:22,690 --> 00:31:17,390
these scary things I am one of these

699
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:22,700
aliens I am an entity and it gives you

700
00:31:28,150 --> 00:31:24,710
power to and I think that's a good thing

701
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:28,160
that is a good thing again the movie is

702
00:31:34,090 --> 00:31:31,090
neurons to Nirvana understanding

703
00:31:35,950 --> 00:31:34,100
psychedelic medicines Oliver tell folks

704
00:31:38,260 --> 00:31:35,960
where they can find the movie how the

705
00:31:39,870 --> 00:31:38,270
movies going it's screening all over the

706
00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:39,880
world there's a number of places

707
00:31:45,340 --> 00:31:42,740
including tonight at San Francisco

708
00:31:47,530 --> 00:31:45,350
landmark theatre I think was about three

709
00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:47,540
days ago it was in Chicago at the

710
00:31:54,580 --> 00:31:50,000
landmark we've got screenings happening

711
00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:54,590
in Helsinki a visa London you know that

712
00:31:59,500 --> 00:31:56,720
it's really getting out there you can

713
00:32:03,070 --> 00:31:59,510
also go to neurons to Ravana com where

714
00:32:06,010 --> 00:32:03,080
you can download the whole movie or you

715
00:32:08,170 --> 00:32:06,020
can order a DVD at the same URL great

716
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:08,180
well again it's a film that I think

717
00:32:13,090 --> 00:32:11,570
anyone who has even a slight interest in

718
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:13,100
this topic but really really find

719
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:15,290
interesting and I do hope they check it

720
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:17,690
out Oliver best of luck with it and

721
00:32:21,670 --> 00:32:19,610
again thanks so much for joining me on

722
00:32:24,790 --> 00:32:21,680
skeptic oh it's been a real pleasure

723
00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:24,800
thank you thanks again to Oliver hook

724
00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:25,700
and hole for Joe

725
00:32:30,250 --> 00:32:27,769
me today on skeptic oh I do have one

726
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:30,260
question that I'd throw out there as a

727
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:32,090
result of this interview and it really

728
00:32:36,879 --> 00:32:34,250
has to do with the second question that

729
00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:36,889
I asked Oliver and that is what do you

730
00:32:41,940 --> 00:32:39,740
suppose the connection might be if there

731
00:32:45,460 --> 00:32:41,950
is one at all between government or

732
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:45,470
social influencers or the people in

733
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:47,330
charge or whatever you want to talk

734
00:32:51,460 --> 00:32:49,010
about it what do you think the

735
00:32:55,180 --> 00:32:51,470
connection might be between those folks

736
00:32:58,690 --> 00:32:55,190
and our public policy position regarding

737
00:33:00,930 --> 00:32:58,700
consciousness expanding substances now I

738
00:33:04,659 --> 00:33:00,940
know many of you aren't as open to

739
00:33:07,060 --> 00:33:04,669
conspiratorial threads as I am I see

740
00:33:09,879 --> 00:33:07,070
them everywhere because in my experience

741
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:09,889
wherever there's money and/or power

742
00:33:14,830 --> 00:33:12,289
there's a conspiracy but leaving that

743
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:14,840
aside what are your thoughts about the

744
00:33:20,769 --> 00:33:17,570
possible connection between the war on

745
00:33:23,529 --> 00:33:20,779
drugs policy and a population that's

746
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:23,539
seeking to expand its consciousness

747
00:33:29,710 --> 00:33:26,710
through the use of these medicines

748
00:33:32,049 --> 00:33:29,720
chemicals substances whatever you want

749
00:33:35,169 --> 00:33:32,059
to call them so chew on that for a while

750
00:33:37,509 --> 00:33:35,179
and share with me your thoughts a couple

751
00:33:40,299 --> 00:33:37,519
places to do that either in the comment

752
00:33:42,250 --> 00:33:40,309
section of the skeptic Oh website or for

753
00:33:44,409 --> 00:33:42,260
a more in-depth discussion you might

754
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:44,419
want to pop on over to the skeptical

755
00:33:51,490 --> 00:33:46,490
form you can find both through the

756
00:33:53,980 --> 00:33:51,500
skeptical website at ske pti k 0 com

757
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:53,990
you'll also find links to all our

758
00:33:58,389 --> 00:33:55,730
previous shows all available for

759
00:34:00,250 --> 00:33:58,399
download for free so do check that out I

760
00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:00,260
have a number of interesting shows

761
00:34:06,190 --> 00:34:03,350
coming up I have a couple of shows of a

762
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:06,200
more experiential nature where I've gone

763
00:34:10,510 --> 00:34:08,510
out and done some things and I'm

764
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:10,520
reporting back on them but I'm kind of

765
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:12,560
waiting for those to get resolved more

766
00:34:16,569 --> 00:34:14,450
fully before I share them with you and

767
00:34:19,419 --> 00:34:16,579
in the meantime I have a couple of other

768
00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:19,429
I think very interesting shows coming up

769
00:34:25,210 --> 00:34:22,129
so do stick with me for all of that and